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00:00:00 Alex VO: The build is presented by square opening. Her first restaurant is a one of a kind challenge. Building the systems, team and infrastructure to grow beyond is another. This season we're going beyond the basics and into restaurant two hundred and one, following what it really takes to scale a restaurant concept without losing the hospitality, culture and food that made it special in the first place. Square supports businesses at every stage with connected tools designed to help restaurant owners run their operations, understand their business, and keep growing. This is the Build season three presented by square.

00:00:46 Jenny VO: You’re listening to The Build: a show about what it really takes to open a restaurant. 

[Theme Music]

00:00:54 Alex VO: Gio and Tania had spent years building Taqueria Ramirez carefully and almost entirely on their own terms. Now, suddenly three very different opportunities were materializing at the same time. The interesting part is that this was never some master plan to build a restaurant empire. Each idea came with its own partners, its own timeline, and eventually the right space. So this episode is about what happens when growth arrives before you plan for it, and how you decide which opportunities to take without losing the spark that made people care in the first place.

00:01:25 Jenny: Okay, so last episode, we went back to the beginning. We talked with Gio and Tanya about how you all met. We talked about the first Taqueria Ramirez and how that came to life over actually many years of sort of iterating and testing and then how you turned one small taco shop into, obviously one of the most beloved long lines in New York City. Um, so tell us why twenty twenty six was the year that you decided to go from two locations to five?

00:01:56  Tania: Good question.

00:01:57  Jenny: Gio was just nodding like mmm, I don't know.

00:02:03 Tania: Yeah, I mean, I guess we first started with Carroll Gardens, which we had already been is the owner of the building. The owners are really good taqueria customers, which later, uh, Nate, one of the owners became friend. He just was kind of like very insightful of us getting a place in his new building, which is in Smith Street. So yeah, it started with that. We went literally like half year back and forth into negotiations. He was first offering of the small commercial space he had, but then we liked more the corner one, which was bigger. That was not a kitchen, that was not a restaurant before. So we had to go through more negotiations and to like literally transform the space, which is still happening right now. But yeah, that was the the beginning then it was a conversation with Carlos about what this new project the three of us wanted to do, actually. So it was a seafood concept. We started looking into places, but like slowly, I guess. And then, yeah, Cornelia, we saw that space and it came from being like a kind of good deal, but because they were asking for money into a great deal, because now they were not asking for money, and they were literally offering us the space all set up. And then at the same time, we had already been talking with our partners from South Korea about this new project that was like three years on the works, conversations, looking into spaces. And it just happened to be the space opening up and us signing into that. So everything was kind of like a work in progress that has happened for a year or more. But then just literally we found the spaces, the houses for all those projects almost at the same time.

00:04:06 Jenny: But did you all have a long term vision? So I know it's funny because it's like you guys are like the best accidental restaurateurs I've ever met, which I love for you and I love story. Um, and so, you know, obviously the first taco shop was sort of like a dollar and a dream. Let's see what happens. And then you're like, okay, it's working. Let's go to number two. Had you guys vision boarded out, all of these additional concepts. And is there more sort of percolating in the brain? Or is it is it really just like we're building as we see the opportunity?

00:04:38 Gio: Yeah, I feel like the concepts, they all came at different times with different people involved. And there were probably also other concepts that are still sort of like, you know, in a cabinet somewhere that. So it's more of a, the things that need to happen for something, because there's a lot of ideas, you know, in the air. And I feel like the way we start to solidify in things, so we we start to think more seriously about them is like other factors like the partners, the space, the right budget and things like that. But no, I don't think we never planned it as a, you know, as a big plan of like, I want to have all these places and definitely not at the same time. But it was literally three years ago since we started talking about South Korea. So we met this group of friends and it really took so long to for that to really become like something real. And the other ones, I mean, the one in Coral Gardens was a year ago and it's now becoming more of a reality. The space has been built, you know, so it was definitely got the most recent one was Cameron Peluda, which is probably we started working on it seriously six months ago. But, um, you know, it's, it's been different timings. But yeah, Tanya's right. We just happened to find the right home for every project at the same time.

00:06:05 Jenny: It's interesting how the last one is actually the fastest one, which we'll come back to that one. But you guys talk a lot about the right home, right? So last time when we talked about building Ramirez, you were saying the space wasn't expensive. It was the right space. So we took it. So is that what you lead with when you're evaluating opportunities? Is it the right space first? And tell us a little bit about how that strategy has worked out for you.

00:06:28 Gio: Sometimes I feel like it's, I mean, the place is so important that sometimes we have first the place and then we build the concept around this particular place. So it is I mean, we have a lot of, um, good relationship with real estate agents. And the first thing we talk to them when they, you know, their approach to us and they start telling us like, what, what is your dream space or what kind of like, what's what do I need to consider for. To send you spots. And one of the first things that we always tell them is that if we choose a space to be. Working there for years, we really want to love the neighborhood, the street, and everything we. Don't want to feel. First of all, like in the city, it's very common to have like really big commercial. Venues that you literally are like business to business back to back and so on, like for the whole block. And that's something that we don't like. We want to be like on a side street with like trees and. Like we want to be maybe in a little more quiet neighborhood and like, we want to like it, you know? And, um, it doesn't matter if it's like in an avenue that we know that we're going to have a lot of foot traffic. Like for us, it's much more about like, in a sense, the quality of life of us being in the space, you know? So that, I guess cut eighty percent of the spaces in New York. And then we. Another thing that is really important to us is sort of like the shape of the spaces, especially for the Taquerias. There is really ideal for us to work on a space that is sort of like more square than rectangular or like the narrow. And also, New York is famous for narrow commercial spots where like, usually you have the kitchen all the way in the back, you know?

00:08:22 Jenny: Why is that? Why is it you want it to be square?

00:08:24 Gio: Because we want to bring the kitchen to the front first of all. So we want to have a space to build a kitchen that customers interact with.

00:08:33 Jenny: Mhm. Mhm.

00:08:34 Jenny VO: Lease negotiations are often complicated, even intimidating part of starting a restaurant. But they are one of the most important parts of the business. The past two seasons of the build have shown us that the landlord is essentially a partner in your business. They determine what you can do with the space, how profitable your business could be, and how long you can stay in the neighborhood. And now, with five different properties under their belt, the Ramirez group knows their fair share about the leasing process.

00:08:59 Tania: At the beginning. It's just kind of like a letter of intention that you send, and then it goes into the rent, you know, like lowering or try to lower it with the landlord. Uh, he was a bit flexible. I mean, he has also partners from this building he purchased. So obviously it's also something that he has to discuss with other people. And also most importantly, or I guess just as important is how much free rent you can get out of a deal. No, it depends in this case, because the corner was, like I said, it was not a restaurant. It was gonna take much more time to to build it out. And that was a factor to consider as well as I think there was a couple of like open Violations or something like that.

00:09:55 Gio: There was a thing that it took actually the most part to negotiate with Nate. That's his name. And, um, that was, uh, because the space was not a restaurant before we needed to change the, the certificate of occupancy.

00:10:08 Jenny: COI

00:10:09 Gio: Uh, so there is, the space was, you know, in a zoning that allowed us to convert it to a restaurant. But there, there was that part of what happens if we don't get this, the actual certificate for any reason, and then we are already invested in investing the money in the space because you actually know that you're getting the certificate of occupancy a little later during the process of your build out. So that took a long time to negotiate with Nate and for a very good reason, because he was concerned of what happens if you don't get the certificate of occupancy and you and you will spend four hundred thousand dollars in the space. And we were like, okay, we're gonna have to figure it out because I know you're not gonna give me that for one hundred thousand dollars, but I also don't want to lose that money. You know, I. So it took a, it took a while to kind of like middle ground point for that.

00:11:08 Tania: In the right term, no?

00:11:11 Jenny: Who's negotiating this for you guys? Is it you or are you, like, spending tons of money on lawyer fees? I mean, I think Tania's a good negotiator. I've seen her.

00:11:19 Gio: we've done a couple different routes. Honestly, I mean, the first one, the restaurant in Greenpoint, we just did ourselves. We were lucky, lucky in a way that it was not a really complicated lease. So it was it was fine. When we had a little more budget, we hired a lawyer that works in the restaurant industry, and he was the one who helped us with the carnitas, for example. Right. So we had an experience there and it was fine, but at some point it started to get like really expensive

00:11:55 Jenny: Mhm.

00:11:56 Gio: and sometimes honestly not great as a customer experience. Great. That's what I meant. And like it was getting really slow and it was hard to communicate with them sometimes. So we decided to step back a little bit. And for the coral gardens, we just use artificial intelligence.

00:12:19 Jenny: ChatGPT lawyer? Don’t be shy about it!

00:12:21 Gio: Yeah.

00:12:21 Tania: I was waiting for that.

00:12:24 Gio: We started using that more and more

00:12:27 Jenny: How much money did you save?

00:12:29 Gio: Uh, at least fifteen thousand dollars

00:12:31 Jenny: Fifteen per space or total?

00:12:33 Gio: Probably total, yeah.

00:12:34 Jenny: Total. But still, that’s not nothing. Yeah. And you feel protected and good?

00:12:40 Gio: Yeah.

00:12:41 Jenny: Yeah.

00:12:41 Gio: It was fine. You know, it was not not… nothing bad.

00:12:45 Jenny: And the commercial terms. Tanya, you guys negotiated yourselves basically with Nate. It sounds like over the course of a year

00:12:51 Tania: Yeah.

00:12:52 Jenny: and then papering it with ChatGPT.

00:12:54 Gio: Yeah, exactly. He doesn't know that. Or maybe he does, but.

00:12:57 Jenny: Don't listen. Nate. Do not tell him when this podcast airs.

00:13:01 Gio: But…

00:13:02 Jenny: Too late now. It's signed.

00:13:04 Gio: Going back to the traditional way in Socceria, we we use lawyers again.

00:13:09 Jenny: And how much did that cost?

00:13:11 Gio: And now, I mean,

00:13:13 Tania: Yeah, I don't know. It just goes little by little.

00:13:14 Gio: it's costing, probably already eighteen thousand dollars.

00:13:18 Alex VO: Regardless of which side of the fence you're on, AI is more present than ever as a business accessory and a research tool. It can increase your knowledge, save you time, and potentially save you money. But AI is not a restaurant cure all, so use at your own risk. Now let's hear more about where the team is with South Korea, their newest opening.

00:13:36 Gio: Or so. And so we have a little more complex structure. We have something called A and B members. So our A members We are five people involved and be members, which actually those five were also operating the space, while the beam members are only investors of the space.

00:14:03 Jenny: So basically there's two class of investors there. Your your a class of investors who

00:14:06 Gio: Yeah.

00:14:07 Jenny: are your investors slash operators and then your B class who are basically like people call silent investors who

00:14:12 Gio: Exactly.

00:14:12 Jenny: just gave money and have no operational

00:14:13 Gio: Yeah.

00:14:14 Jenny: say.

00:14:14 Gio: And from the B I think that we probably have ten

00:14:18 Jenny: Ten

00:14:18 Gio: that

00:14:18 Jenny: oh, wow.

00:14:19 Gio: um.

00:14:20 Jenny: this is the most expensive project you guys have done to date. And the biggest or.

00:14:24 Tania: Yeah. One hundred percent.

00:14:25 Gio: Yeah. I think so. Yeah

00:14:27 Jenny: And definitely the most stakeholders

00:14:28 Gio: yeah

00:14:29 Tania: Yeah.

00:14:29 Jenny: because everything else is just you two so far.

00:14:30 Gio: yeah

00:14:31 Jenny: Yeah.

00:14:31 Tania: I mean, us too.

00:14:33 Gio: Carlos in Peludo

00:14:34 Jenny: And.

00:14:34 Gio: and Yvonne and Carrie in carnitas. And besides that, me and Tania.

00:14:40 Tania: Yeah.

00:14:40 Gio: Yeah, yeah.

00:14:40 Tania: Mhm.

00:14:41 Jenny: So it's a much more complicated because you have basically eleven people who

00:14:45 Tania: Yeah.

00:14:45 Jenny: are either investors and or operators. So yeah, you needed to really

00:14:50 Gio: Uh,

00:14:50 Jenny: have that papered. Well, and then so

00:14:51 Gio: yeah.

00:14:51 Jenny: tell us a little bit about like, how is that deal actually structured? So there’s a…

00:14:55 Gio: Well, uh, so we decided that we were gonna name a price for the company, right? So based on the projections and the scale of the space, once we knew what's going to happen at forty six, Norman, we started working on basically projections to value the company. Uh, you know, even if it's the company is not operating yet, you need to have at least an idea of that number because that's going to help you to set up the value of the percentage that you are opening for investors, basically, which we decided to be twenty percent. So all member a class member, sorry. Um, we have within the five of us the eighty percent of the company and. And so that leaves twenty percent up for grabs to put in a in a certain way. And, and that we value that twenty percent just to say a number into one point five million dollars. So basically, that's how you, if you want two percent, five percent of the company, then you get the value for that. And that's how much you invest in the company. So that's the way we structure it in terms of that. And then once we got the list, we started looking for seriously much more seriously for investors and, you know, start inviting people over and such.

00:16:28 Jenny: How long did it take you to fundraise for that?

00:16:30 Tania: Um, I mean, I guess we're kind of still going. We're very close to closing that first round at the beginning. I mean, that was like we started probably February to actually start looking approaching people little by little. It's been. it's been happening. But definitely as we get closer to opening day and as people see more like things happening or press, you know, now people are approaching

00:16:59 Jenny: People are approaching you. Yeah. You're like “where were you four months ago?”

00:17:00 Tania: And now you want to invest. It's like, no, you're… that's it. But yeah, we're very close to…

00:17:06 Jenny: Price went up. No. Yeah.

00:17:08 Tania: we're very close to just close that first round. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, right now for, um, opening day that the official is June eleven, uh, this weekend we have, we want to call it also soft openings because, you know, obviously it's like testing the kitchen we did this past Friday was no Saturday. We did only brunch and lunch and happy hour. So now we're gonna, you know, go towards the dinner time and that's gonna be a couple days. And then officially June eleven.

[AD BREAK}

00:17:47 Alex VO: Last season, we watched Rasheeda build Ramen by Ra around two very different experiences an intimate chef's counter and a fast moving takeout window. Square helps her manage both while also connecting online orders, in-person sales, merchandise, and guest information. That means Rasheeda can recognize the customer who ordered ramen last week and bought a shirt two weeks ago. It's tech helping a small business feel even more personal. The build is presented by square. Learn more at square dot com.

[MUSIC FADES]

00:18:19 Jenny: And you all started talking about this concept three years ago. You mentioned.

00:18:22 Tania: Mhm.

00:18:23 Jenny: But you took the space when.

00:18:25 Gio: Uh, that was February twenty twenty six.

00:18:29 Jenny: Wow. So

00:18:29 Tania: Yeah.

00:18:29 Jenny: this is actually happening very

00:18:30 Tania: Yeah.

00:18:30 Jenny: fast to.

00:18:31 Gio: It was really it wasn't going to happen. Honestly. I mean, at the beginning of the year, we were like, you know what? Because always the point of this project was to be able to open for the World Cup.

00:18:42 Jenny: World Cup, right?

00:18:43 Gio: And by the end of last year, honestly, we were like, you know what? We haven't found the space. So I don't think it's happening.

00:18:50 Tania: It's too tight.

00:18:51 Gio: So let's just kind of like realize that it's not happening. And maybe we can find like an empty lot to do a pop up, like just for the workup. And we were just having starting to have that conversation.

00:19:03 Jenny: With the same partners, or would

00:19:04 Gio: Yeah.

00:19:04 Jenny: you have done that on your own?

00:19:06 Gio: With the same partners. Yeah. And then the news popped out of nowhere that

00:19:12 Jenny: That Nora

00:19:12 Gio: Nora was closing and

00:19:14 Tania: Mhm.

00:19:14 Gio: we were like, oh, oh.

00:19:15 Jenny: So as soon as you saw that news, did you. You're like, let's take. That's the space. That's it.

00:19:20 Tania: Yeah.

00:19:20 Gio: We. Yeah.

00:19:21 Jenny: Yeah.

00:19:21 Tania: That was, uh. So it was a funny story because there is this broker. I don't know exactly where he came from, but he reached out or one of my partners, John, reached out to him and he told him, okay, this they're gonna close. We can take a look, but it's not still not on the market. So just don't say anything. And I mean, obviously the employees were still working there, so just act normal or whatever.

00:19:47 Jenny: Act normal. Don't be creeping on the employees.

00:19:50 Tania: But then the… I mean, they went to see that was, I think in December. And I think I mean, the manager or someone actually realized what was happening. So yeah, there was like a big conflict with that broker. He was like, I think he got fired, I don't

00:20:07 Jenny: Oh, no!

00:20:08 Tania: know, something like that. Like he was not supposed to show it. Still no. Uh, yet. So after that, I mean, honestly, that kind of started a conversation with the other owners, which is Michelle and Scott. And also because our contractor also built Nora, that helped us make the connection. It's like, oh, sorry, we saw this was happening. I'm sorry. It

00:20:32 Jenny: Sorry for your loss.

00:20:33 Tania: first, not the best first approach, but we're really interested.

00:20:36 Jenny: Yeah.

00:20:37 Tania: And that's literally how the conversation happened. Just like an accidental literally the place was not even on the market. I don't even know how this person found out. But when we were talking with the landlord, the first talk, he was getting phone calls like, you know, over and over about people already interested in taking the space.

00:20:58 Jenny: So did you have to negotiate against other people, or was it sort of like you guys were got lucky because you were a first mover?

00:21:03 Tania: Yeah, we got lucky. We didn't really have to negotiate with other people. Also, Michelle and Scott knew about taqueria and that obviously helped. Like we are in the neighborhood already. We are operators already. It's a great concept. And yeah, they were really convinced that it was the right concept for for Ex-nora.

00:21:27 Jenny: Ex-nora.

00:21:27 Tania: Yeah. Mhm.

00:21:28 Jenny: So as you guys are mapping out the next call it six to twelve months, how are you thinking about like your bandwidth? Where do you pay attention? How, how do you how do you do this? Because you have Sooceria is in June Like imminently opening. Gio was like, oh God, please stop. He's like, do not say it out loud. Um, and then we have Peludo is likely next month in July,

00:21:56 Tania: In July. Yeah. After the World Cup..

00:21:56 Jenny: After the World Cup. And then we have Carroll Gardens, Taqueria is back like September,

00:22:04 Gio: More like September, I will say.

00:22:05 Tania: Mhm.

00:22:06 Jenny: So fall, call it fall. And then we take a nap.

00:22:10 Gio: Yeah.

00:22:10 Tania: Yeah.

00:22:10 Jenny: Yeah, yeah.

00:22:11 Tania: No. Um, I mean, obviously World Cup is going to be very intense. We are really lucky that we are a large team. And also our GM Rob, he has been really pro and helpful with setting us up. So on my side, I feel like once we get going and we start, you know, doing it day by day, hopefully things become more smooth and easier to manage. Like I don't hope to be there all the time, every day. And I guess that's going to be once the workup is over, we're gonna dedicate obviously, time for the opening over there. Uh, that's another, I don't know how many months it will take to get it running, but obviously we want to push hard for the summer. Like we're gonna have to be, you know, working daily over there. And then. Jesus, brother Vito, he just got here from Mexico, and he's really been helping us right now with, like, repairs and things we have, we can improve at taqueria. And

00:23:23 Jenny: And.

00:23:24 Tania: the idea is that he becomes full time operator for El Carbon in Carroll Gardens.

00:23:30 Jenny: So he'll be the full time operator in Carroll Gardens. And then you'll go back and forth between

00:23:34 Tania: Mhm.

00:23:35 Jenny: Taqueria and Carnitas, and Zakariya and Carlos will be.

00:23:39 Gio: Yeah, Carlos will be more operator, full time operator at Peludo.

00:23:44 Jenny: At Peludo.

00:23:44 Gio: Yeah.

00:23:44 Jenny: Yeah.

00:23:45 Gio: And I mean, I guess in terms of the bandwidth, it's it's something that we're still kind of like discovering, to be honest. We are just, I think like just organization is key. What I have noticed for sure that they have my life has changed this year, especially the last couple of months is that yeah, we we now have to wake up. I have to wake up at seven,

00:24:15 Tania: Seven seven oh.

00:24:16 Gio: you know, things like that.

00:24:19 Jenny: What time did you used to wake up?

00:24:21 Gio: like nine thirty.

00:24:23 Tania: nine just kind of chilling, you know?

00:24:27 Gio: And.

00:24:27 Tania: Yeah.

00:24:28 Jenny: This is what happened to me when I had kids. But it happened to you when you had a third restaurant.

00:24:32 Gio: Yeah.

00:24:32 Tania: Exactly.

00:24:34 Gio: So things like that, right. Like that's, I guess the bandwidth you can at a certain point, just like expand it, Expanded, you know, by waking up early or like, you know, it's dreaming a little more like just organizing your schedule and like, um, finding time to eat and things like that. But like.

00:24:52 Jenny: Finding time to eat is very important.

00:24:54 Tania: I know. Yeah.

00:24:55 Gio: But sometimes it's hard to be honest.

00:24:56 Jenny: Yeah.

00:24:56 Gio: For me, it's, it's sometimes I kind of either push it or like, I don't even want to think about it and.

00:25:05 Jenny: Who needs Ozempic? You just need five restaurants.

00:25:05 Tania: No, especially, I feel like. I mean, it happens to me in my. It happens to you more like being in the kitchen all day. Sometimes you don't really want to like, just eat, you know? Which is crazy to think,

00:25:20 Jenny: You're just grazing.

00:25:21 Tania: But I heard from Carlos that it also happens to him.

00:25:24 Jenny: Yeah, I think that’s a classic chef problem. It’s like, all of the sudden it’s midnight and all I’ve eaten is gummy bears, you know? so there's this balance of you've expanded your working hours, right? So you're being more disciplined with your time. How are you taking care of yourself too? Besides trying to find time to eat?

00:25:40 Tania: Working out? No, I feel like that's been a change this year. Awesome.

00:25:44 Gio: Awesome. Yeah, we've been working on it way more often this year

00:25:48 Tania: In the mornings,

00:25:48 Gio:  just to kind of like, you know,

00:25:51 Jenny: Get the blood pumping.

00:25:52 Gio: get the blood pumping. And I feel like also we've been trying to balance the social life sometimes works, sometimes it doesn't because we have, you know, especially now that we are really focused on, uh, wine experience in Peludo. We've been, you know, going to try and like tastings and things like that, that sometimes they, we keep it really professional, but sometimes we don’t 

00:26:23 Jenny: That's okay. All life is about balance. It sounds like you're putting pieces in place for a team. So how you know you have Carlos at Pluto? You're bringing your brother, you're partnering with your brother. He's moving countries to be here to help, to really expand this group. How have you thought about filling out the rest of the team? Like, who are you? How are you recruiting front of house team? It sounds like you have a manager. Tell us a little bit about like, you know, what's how you're tackling that?

00:26:49 Tania: Um, I mean, just for example, in Socceria, there was really a big influx of people reaching out. And Rob, I mean, we start before Rob, me and my partner John, we were interviewing people like every day. But now that Rob joined, now he's interviewing people every day.

00:27:11 Jenny: That's what you should be doing.

00:27:12 Tania: So

00:27:12 Jenny: Yeah.

00:27:12 Tania: no, honestly, like, for example, this past Saturday that we did this Champions League finals of opening, like the whole team was awesome. And this is also people, people that we have met from, you know, the industry from other restaurants that they are available now to work. So that that was a lot of people reaching out as well. Like, oh, if you need a bartender, I would love some shifts, like just by meeting people from the industry, literally. So in South Korea, I think we're pretty good. The kitchen was another story though, like that's more particular. And I guess that's more a word of mouth kind of thing. Like people from the taqueria. Do you have someone?

00:27:56 Jenny: Was it harder to find people to work in the kitchen than front of house?

00:27:59 Gio: Um, it wasn't too hard, but I'm still looking for people, for example, and we're opening in in a week and a half. So I still have like two, maybe two positions that I haven't been able to fill. But for the most part, it was easy just to find and ask people around that, hey, you know, someone that wants to work in the kitchen. And that's how I was. I've been able to find most of the people that way just by from other people. References. Yeah.

00:28:32 Jenny: And what about for Paludo will that be? Carlos will do all the hiring there.

00:28:37 Tania: We just interview a possible manager and we are hoping that he helped us with that. But honestly, as we see it, I mean, in front of house is very little, little people, little amount of people. A, I think we're gonna be like four people in front of house and back of house. Yeah. I think that's something that Carlos will have to take care more. I mean, with Gio to like interviewing people and I don’t know

00:29:08 Gio: We haven't started much there yet,

00:29:10 Tania: Yeah.

00:29:10 Gio: but, uh, but we have two key people in the team already.

00:29:13 Tania: Mhm.

00:29:13 Gio: Mhm. The our

00:29:14 Tania: I know we're.

00:29:15 Gio: beverage director and the general manager.

00:29:17 Jenny: Yeah.

00:29:17 Gio: They're sort of like on board. And besides that, we we need to find a cook that is going to be in charge of all the cold dishes that it needs to be really fluent in English. And, you know, we need it's a, it's going to be a lot of like Like facing customers and things like that, especially because it's a small space. So it's going to be like a lot of interaction with customers. So we were trying to find also team up in the kitchen that has also that scale of the language.

00:29:53 Tania: Yeah.

00:29:54 Jenny: So it's, it's important that they're like well versed in Mexican culture and food and,

00:29:59 Gio: Yeah.

00:30:00 Jenny: and can speak both Spanish and English.

00:30:02 Tania: Yeah, exactly.

00:30:03 Jenny: Yeah, which is particular.

00:30:03 Tania: Now I feel I mean, we're the two Carlos, Gio, Lucio and me. So we need more women.

00:30:11 Jenny: We need another woman.

00:30:12 Tania: We need more women.

00:30:14 Jenny: All right.

00:30:14 Tania: For some reason.

00:30:15 Jenny: We gotta find you a badass.

00:30:15 Tania: Yeah.

00:30:16 Jenny: Like.

00:30:16 Tania: in, uh, soccer too. I was like, why everybody is like, like coming to interview, like, mostly men people, you know, I'm like, where's the woman? So yeah, we need more balance.

00:30:28 Jenny: All right, so this is your hiring call.

00:30:30 Tania: Yeah, exactly.

00:30:31 Jenny: We need, we need. Yeah. This is what we're looking for. When will you know if it's too much? Like, what would that feel like to you all? If you're like, okay, I have to pump the brakes somewhere.

00:30:40 Tania: I mean, for me this year. Yeah, this is it. Not like focusing on what we have right now. I still feel like we are able to manage the amount of work we have. But if anything else, you know, like Gio likes to see places still.

00:30:57 Jenny: Are you still looking at places?

00:30:59 Tania: Still says yes to okay. Yeah, I want to see. I'm like, no, I

00:31:02 Gio: I want to open another business with Carlos. Actually, we have that on the books. And there's another idea with other chefs that I also want to explore.

00:31:16 Tania: But not this year.

00:31:16 Gio: But but yeah, for this year, we're good.

00:31:20 Tania: I would like…

00:31:20 Jenny: Tania’s like, you're sleeping on the couch. If it's this year.

00:31:25 Jenny VO: Gio, and Tanya's growth has been shaped by timing, relationships, and spaces that were simply too right to ignore. But there is another way to arrive at a similar moment at Flour and Water Hospitality Group in San Francisco. Thomas McNaughton and Ryan Pollnow are also opening multiple locations and building the infrastructure to support them. The difference is that their expansion has been mapped out for years.

00:31:46 Jenny: You sort of started with this like punk rock, very, you know, independent spirit. And I think you still are maintaining that. And I'm curious, like, as you scale and you are trying to put systems in place and trying to replicate rights as part of scaling, is being able to replicate a repeatable experience at a certain price point and certain margins. How are you carrying through some of that, like initial independent spirit into the expansion, and how do you make sure it stays that way?

00:32:11 Ryan: The way we look at our group, it's really two arms to a single restaurant group, and we have what we call legacy restaurants. We need to figure out a better word for it. Legacy restaurants are single unit concepts and that is flour and water. The OG on Harrison Street in the mission. And that is Panorama, which is our more casual kind of area Level still pasta focused restaurant a block away from flour and water. And then we have the pizzeria and the pizza shop side. And that is the concept that we're trying to replicate. And that's the one where we're trying to create the stamp and then place that stamp in different geographical strategic locations. And even within that, even though they're, they're multi-unit concept, we want to have a feel that's of the place. And so a lot of that comes to restaurant design, a little bit of menu tweaking, but how do we make our Oakland pizza shop feel like it's in Oakland? And how would we make that mission Rock San Francisco location feel like? It's across McCovey Cove from Oracle Park, and that comes from using local artists or artisans to do the build out and really paying attention to, like the sense of place. And, you know, we don't want to have a chain concept that you walk into, you know, let's just use McDonald's, probably the most famous worldwide chain out there. You walk into a McDonald's anywhere. You know, you're into McDonald's because it feels exactly the same. It's the same color palette. It's more or less the same menu. I know they have like weird specialties in places, but for us, like, we want you to walk into a flour and water pizzeria and know that it's by us, but also know that you're in the location that it was built in. We started doing a very cool exercise with business plans where rather than starting with like the structure of an executive summary and all the data that you need for a business plan, we do a night in blank. So when Penny Romo was being born, we started by saying, what does a night in Penny Roma feel like? And even then, we didn't have a name for the restaurant. So it was like, But describing the feel and the energy. And then eventually you get to the service style and you get to the food. That helps inform the rest of the important stuff in a plan. But really keeping that rock and roll atmosphere is important to us. So having energy, feel, and vibe to find everything else is part of that process.

00:34:58 Tom: It's crazy is that. Doing that first exercise with Penny Roma. And we said, like, we want to make it feel like a dinner party and writing that down. And then probably almost a year later, it got this really awesome review. And like when we first opened it up, it got a great review. And in the review, it said, it feels like they're throwing a dinner party every night. I'm like, oh fuck. Like that is the power of word. And like, we put it down and I'm sure we like shoved it down everyone's throats and like, you know, and then like all the communications, both internal and external around dinner party, but still, like we wrote it down and then it showed up, you know?

00:35:44 Alex: In the mindset of expansion. How do you guys know when you're ready for the next one? Is there a space just present itself and you say, okay, this is it? Or you say, I'm more comfortable now with seven locations. Let's look for the eighth. Have you ever done multiple ones at the same time?

00:36:00 Tom: Are the next three years in front of us is definitely a more accelerated growth than we've dealt with before. And I just said to somebody a couple of weeks ago, they're like, well, how do you know when you're ready? And I'm like, do you do you have kids? Yeah. I'm like, remember your first kid being in the hospital? And you're like, you prepare for it and you have all the things and the cribs ready and all that. But then one day they, A nurse comes and hands you your baby and you're like, oh, who's coming home with us? Like, who's, who's going to help? Who's going to tell us what to do? Like, I think you can only nothing great. Um, or do you ever feel one hundred percent prepared for. And so at a certain point, you're taking that leap and you want to be, you know, you want to be as prepared as possible to take that leap. But it's still a leap. And we're talking about this. And one of, um, one of our mentors, uh, we were talking about like just feeling over our skis and imposter syndrome and all that jazz. And he's like, anybody that's doing something great in this world feels imposter syndrome. Literally just means you're like pushing yourself. You're a little bit over your skis. And I think that me and Ryan are fascinated with food and restaurants Because it's a thirst for knowledge and we're constantly learning. And like every single day. And like, if you're not pushing yourselves or doing that learning curve starts to slow down. And so prepare as much as you can, find great partners that can support you. So you're not alone, you're not alone in the journey. And then take the leap.

00:37:55 Ryan: And there are, as we've grown and as groups grow, there's always going to be moments where you feel a little bit on your heels and others when you feel on your toes, and it has to do with the amount of support you build in and support being layers of leadership and management to make sure that certain folks aren't being overwhelmed. And we're, we're still learning that delicate balance of when to add layer of management to support growth and allow leadership to be heads up and strategic And that has to obviously work within your budgets and your models and the rays. And so getting our group to a point where we're big enough to have added layers of support. Sometimes you have to go through the growing pains of we're doing too much right now. Everyone's overwhelmed. Expansion is is too aggressive. And once you break through that and you have, you know, group shared revenue that supports added layers of now we have like an area manager for our pizzeria concept. And Paige oversees all front of house management for the three existing locations. And we'll do so for all Bay area locations. And same thing on the culinary side. We you know, Tom and I are the chefs of the restaurant group. And we've always been the, the, the co-executive chefs. We now for the first time have an actual executive chef title and position to oversee legacy restaurants. And Rachel, who's been with us for a decade, is allowing us to remain heads up. Because again, like I said earlier, training and trust. And so.

00:39:46 Tom: But let's be clear, at least like fifteen times this week, we'll have the thought of like we have nothing figured out. Like something will happen. Like we don't have anything figured out. And then the fairy, like two hours later, it's like, God, we're so evolved. And then two hours later, it's like, what the fuck? Like, you know,

00:40:08 Tom: it’s a constant pull.

00:40:08 Jenny: I know.

00:40:08 Jenny: Yeah, we feel like that too. We're like, this one's great. And we're

00:40:12 Tom: Yeah.

00:40:13 Jenny: like, oh, everything's on fire.

00:40:14 Tom: Yeah.

00:40:14 Jenny: I think that’s like

00:40:14 Tom: It's burning, it's burning. It's bad. And it's like, great. Life is great.

00:40:19 Ryan: What one realization you have to get over when you have multiple concepts and multiple locations of concepts is something's always going to be broken and someone's always going to disappoint you. And you know, we receive what is it like fourteen service notes, uh, emails a night now recapping from, from our perspective, back perspective, there's going to be bad news in at least two of those. And so you can't let those, those frustrations or those losses allow you to forget all of the other wins and the twelve emails that were all positive about guest experience and everything went great and nothing broke. So just having a, an understanding that there's just more opportunity for things to go wrong. And that's okay. We band together as a team. We work through things. We don't allow those bricks to build up into a wall.

00:41:17 Alex VO: Flour and water began with a clear feeling they wanted to create. Then documented it so that other people could help reproduce it. Gio and Tania are approaching growth from a different direction. The opportunities came first. Now they need to build a structure around them.

00:41:29 Jenny VO: But both groups are wrestling with the same question. How do you add systems, partners and locations without sanding away everything that made the original restaurant unique?

00:41:38 Alex VO: Next time on the build, we'll dive into El Camaron Peludo, more specifically with Chef Carlos making his show debut.

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00:41:49 Jenny VO: The Build is produced by me, Jenny Goodman, along with Alex McCrery and Sam Gerardi. Our audio engineer for this episode is Sam Gerardi. The show is produced in partnership with Square. You can learn more at Square.com. Be sure to subscribe to the build wherever you listen to podcasts, and follow along @TilitNYC for special behind the scenes moments and more from the show. 

00:42:10 Alex VO: The Build is presented by Square. Supporting restaurant owners and small businesses with the tools they need to start, run and grow. To learn more, visit square dot com. And we'll see you next time on The Build.

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